I hate TikTok because it's so good. It's a frictionless content pump that we can open and doom-scroll for hours. I have never seen such a beautifully crafted user experience, from the recommendation algorithm that is top-notch the content that is catchy and highlights trends without overdoing it and the absence of political content if you don't engage with it (or maybe there is none at all).
I don't have it on my phone, but I truly see it as the pinnacle of the stupidly addictive social media app and it scares me because it means that Chinese companies are just as capable as us to spin the next Facebook and distribute propaganda to the next generation.
Everyone copies the core feed mechanic, but no one actually builds good video editing/creation tools into their app, which is actually why Tiktok took off.
If you don't make it easy for your users to post good content, of course you're going to make a boring app.
This is largely due to the fact that "Reels" is an add-on feature to the rest of the Instagram app, rather than its primary focus like it is on TikTok.
TikTok was built around this flow. Its community culture expects the content to be in a certain format and will self-moderate via metrics such as likes, comments, views. The UX of the app itself is built around this content. There are no distractions.
Instagram on the other hand has a very different community, with different culture and expectations. The content creators on Instagram may not be as familiar with the content that is conducive to the Reels format. The UX of Reels on insta is also an add-on feature. You're not opening instagram to interact with Reels, you have different intentions. Whereas when you open TikTok, you are there for one reason, so the app is built around that one flow.
You should also see the pathetic copycat feature YouTube has created called the shorts. Facebook's attempt with short videos and reels is not much better either.
Why does every company feel the urge to copy this and also fail so badly at this
YouTube shorts broke my workflow. My son likes to make short videos of himself singing songs or doing funny things and then we watch them on the TV together. YouTube retroactively made all of our videos “shorts” and then says you can’t cast shorts to the TV.
Are youtube shorts a failure? They seem to be immensely popular in terms of views/engagement.
Reminds me of how people would deride Instagram for copying Snapchat stories, yet far more people probably use Instagram stories than snapchat and are perfectly satisfied with the UX despite it being a blatant copycat.
>Are youtube shorts a failure? They seem to be immensely popular in terms of views/engagement.
I just think that's only because "the algorithm" prioritizes shorts at the moment to try and push them and make folks even bother making them. Once YouTube starts acting neutral towards them I don't think they'll hold up.
I've never come across a short intentionally and after seeing quite a few I haven't tried to find further ones (and outside of mobile it's quite difficult to do so).
That said of course, I'm probably not in the demographic shorts plays to either.
Because sometimes it works. Instagram stories being a great example of this. Though once the functionality of an app gets diluted enough, like with Instagram and Facebook, each additional feature becomes less competitive.
So I installed tik tok for the first time yesterday. I don’t get how it’s supposed to show me things I like. It’s mostly hot girls doing makeup or teens running from the police and stuff. How do I get it to show me things I like? How does it discover my niche interests.
I mean it's mostly a kids dancing app, so that's mostly what you get by default.
Follow Tom Silva, Mr Barricade, Soft Pourn, Woodshopdiaries, Scott Hanselman. This will get you a bunch of interesting content. It might not be what you want, but it's definitely not makeup tutorials.
IMO I find the platform to be mentally abusive for me. It's a whirlwind of stirring emotions, shocking content, and 'earworms' everywhere, where memes iteratively compound into their own nonsensical language at a faster rate than on other networks. I'm afraid of observing, say, misconceptions and false math tricks passively on the platform, and accidentally letting them burrow into my brain. There isn't enough time for proper critical thinking on TikTok.
I mean, you're not completely wrong, but if you say "not interested" to a handful of emotion-stirring or shocking things, it's amazing how savvily the algorithm will steer you away from that content and often into more interesting fare.
Yeah I had to delete it. Something about the fullscreen autoplaying videos is really addicting. And then of course the recommendations are good too and are seamless.
your comment is contradictory - if there is no political content, what propaganda is there to distribute? per your own comment wouldn't they just be distributing the "catchy" content?
There isn't propaganda. I guess people say there is, because conspiracy theories are more fun than fact. But strong statements like "TikTok is propaganda" need to be supported with evidence.
I would say that the highly tailored experience of the TikTok algorithm would make a propaganda op quite easy to detect. The algorithm is so ridiculously good, that you would instantly spot a propaganda video, or notice when your feed begins to skew from what you like to see.
Wasn't there something about how you couldn't find TikTok videos about the Hong Kong protests?
Ahh, so the Guardian had some leaked moderation documents[1] implying there was an active moderation keeping them from being viewed. Buzzfeed said they did their own experiments and found no evidence that videos about Hong Kong were being removed[2].
I see no reason why both of those can't be true: if you control the algorithm, you don't need to delete anything, you can control with fine granularity how viral it's allowed to go. I guess that's a conspiracy theory, but for myself, I'm very skeptical that any media company operates in China with what most of us would call political neutrality and free speech.
I think it's much more likely that such videos don't rise to the top because it's not what TikTok's audience cares to engage with.
I honestly don't know anyone that actually wants to see political content on TikTok (though, if you seek it out, you will find it.) It's simply not what the platform is for.
I wouldn't put it past tech giants in democratic nations not to tweak their algorithms to push their own political agenda, much less tech giants in non democratic nations.
It's too powerful a tool not to abuse, I know it, and you know it too.
>The algorithm is so ridiculously good, that you would instantly spot a propaganda video, or notice when your feed begins to skew from what you like to see.
Would you notice it if they slowly ramped it up? How would you know whether it's grassroots or planted by the CCP?
Yes, I think it would be absurdly easy to notice, because nothing in most people's feeds is remotely political.
How exactly would you propagandize a stream of improv skits, or dance videos, or pet videos? Every user's feed is extremely specific and deviations, even small ones, are easy to notice.
Many months ago I saw some Toks which had 'Huge Red Flags' - basically Chinese Nationals trying to convince of some obvious CCP policy - though I couldn't tell for sure if it was propaganda, it seemed like it.
But haven't seen that in months.
But otherwise I don't think they promote propaganda actively.
But the difference between FB/Twitter and TT is the kinds of suppression they do. TT will remove anything that might remotely offend the sensibilities of the CCP.
If you don't interact with political content you will never see it. But if you do you'll see a lot more of it. TikTok basically has auto-subreddits that are crazy specific because of its discovery algorithm.
There is no political content right now, my point is that in case of escalating conflict or proxy-conflict with China they could absolutely run disinformation through this channel in a way that is somewhat transparent to their users to spark anti-war counter-movements in the US.
This is a far-fetched concern. Realistically speaking, the platform would just get permanently banned if it was being used to spread propaganda in a manner that harms a wartime effort.
Otherwise, I just don't see China risking one of the most promising gems to have come out of its internet technology industry in a long time.
The funny thing about TikTok/ByteDance is actually that the Chinese government didn't really care about them until Trump was against them. Like, by Chinese standards Douyin is smaller than the companies that the CCP do care about.
Yeah. My understanding of Chinese internet is that it's 99% fluff or celebrity news and other inconsequential things mixed with a bit of CCP approved nationalism
One feature that amazes me about the algorithm is that it reacts to scrolling habits in what seems to be the minimum possible number of observations. Suppose half of your feed are talking head videos. Stop interacting with them abruptly by scrolling over within 2 seconds and observe how the algorithm gradually reduces their frequency.
Most so called political content is not useful anyways I don’t think. All I see for the most part is people convinced that their view is the right view, and almost no one seems to be trying to find common ground and work out solutions that everyone can be satisfied with. Instead it’s like they think that any inch you “give” is a loss.
https://polemix.io is a mobile platform that try to find common grounds by allowing "respect" votes that show that you disagree, but still find the idea/content/opinion relevant.
Social networks isolate people by only showing them content they agree with. It’s like french kissing yourself in the mirror.
We are 9 weeks online and growing with 2k+ users. Would appreciate your intake (invite code LV005). Cheers
A friend of mine was targeted by a fringe group. They were doxxed along with some stolen private family photos and their real PII circulating around in Twitter with lots of threats from the dumpster fire that are Twitter accounts.
It was a traumatizing experience if you're a normal person and not used to this kind of negative attention attached to your real identity.
FB takes a lot of heat here vs Twitter perhaps because Zuck seems creepy but Jack Dorsey detoxes for one week in Africa but Instagram were quick to take down those threatening posts with PII but I was told Twitter asked for all sorts of government ID and then auto closed all the cases saying it's all within their terms and conditions. If any social media needs to disappear I think Twitter should be first in line.
That's interesting, though. I find a lot of political and critical content on TikTok. You do have to look for it, it's not as popular, but TikTok definitely can be used for it.
I do not use the product (mainly because I'm too hooked on others...sadly) but one of my biggest gripes on the UX is the lack of video player controlls.
It really grinds my gears to have to watch 90% of a 60 sec video to be able to replay text at the end of something else. Other social apps fail with this as well, e.g. Snapchat, Instagram.
I'm curious how intentional the design decision is, perhaps trying to maximize time spent on the app? Interesting though how FB and Twitter do not follow the design pattern.
ByteDance's overwhelming revenue is from non-TikTok sources, i.e., all JinRiTouTIao, DouYin, and other minor properties. The title wants you to think it related to TikTok as it was one of the most controversial news pieces in 2020.
TikTok's financial success is still very uncertain.
ByteDance is facing a weak BIDU (note Alibaba do not have much Ads business, and Tencent has a different walled garden), while here they are facing FB & Google in US.
> TikTok's financial success is still very uncertain.
I would take that bet any day of the week and twice on Fridays. TikTok has a massive, growing user base with engaging content on a platform that people generally like. I find it hard to believe they would succeed so massively in their app design and recommendation algorithms and then fail at monetization, which at this point is the trivial part.
For any spectacularly failed startup, there have been ardent supporters who uttered words no less enthusiasm than yours.
When I say their future are uncertain, I mean that it's more uncertain than one might expect, based on DouYin's success in China. One evidence I raised, is that competitors here are much stronger.
Plus, you might not believe it, CCP is more friendly to big tech than US government...
I actually find it less addictive than other feeds - I think it's because I feel less attached to the content (it's either people I don't know or famous people I like) and don't really engage with it beyond sometimes liking things.
> it scares me because it means that Chinese companies are just as capable as us to spin the next Facebook and distribute propaganda to the next generation.
Is there any good reason to focus on the misuse of a technology?
I never understood the Chinese propaganda angle but I agree the app is wonderful. It's the only app that has found a way to touch every one of my emotions.
Given that there are those calling these social networks highly addictive, catchy and delightful I guess it's safe to say that the drugs are still in effect.
Especially when the content and algorithms itself is or can be easily manipulated or gamed.
So how long until the users get screwed (once again)?
> In the meantime, it's a breath of fresh air in a stagnant space.
Exactly. We've been here before haven't we?
How many more social networks do you need to join just to say the exact same thing? Of course. You're the one shilling it everywhere on this whole thread, when the news is for early 'investors' preparing for a gigantic IPO for massive returns. That's the news they want to hear.
As for the users; well who cares about them, they (Bytedance) don't care about you. As long as you keep generating great shareholder value for them it is another social network with a different internal flavour. Nothing has changed.
So I will ask again: How long until the users get screwed (once again)?
I'll be honest, your reply is kind of all over the place, so I don't know what you're trying to get at.
How are you expecting TikTok to "screw" its users? And what's the big deal with users just leaving the platform if this does happen? I really don't see the big issue here.
There you have it. No replies and ZERO evidence provided by any of the claims and responses in this thread; except for mine which is actually has substantiated evidence to the claims presented.
Typical of some of the HN crowd, like yourself who create illogical and baseless comments without any evidence to support it.
> I'll be honest, your reply is kind of all over the place, so I don't know what you're trying to get at.
I'll put it in a very simple TikTok format for you: TikTok is just the same as any other social media platform which is fundamentally in the interests of the investors (they want to IPO with a massive return on investment); Not you or the users. Why do you think I quoted 'used' here? [0]
> How are you expecting TikTok to "screw" its users?
They already did [1][2], which is my point. Therefore, I do not have any confidence that they will change or how they are any different to other social media platforms. Yet you continue to deny such basic things like 'censorship' [3] even when another user pointed out a source [4] that included leaked information about TikTok's own suppression actions; completely debunking your vacuous claim.
> And what's the big deal with users just leaving the platform if this does happen?
That's not my problem. Another platform will just take its place and screw over their users over the interest of the investors (If they take capital).
So far with all your responses, you have provided ZERO evidence to your claims. I will ask one more time: 'How long until the users get screwed (once again)?'
I don't have it on my phone, but I truly see it as the pinnacle of the stupidly addictive social media app and it scares me because it means that Chinese companies are just as capable as us to spin the next Facebook and distribute propaganda to the next generation.